Cosmopolitan, October 1982

Welcome to the first episode of Mag Hags! And where else to begin than the OG of having it all: Cosmopolitan.

You can join the discussion HERE. And if you haven’t listened to the episode yet, you can do that HERE.

Franki Cookney 00:00 

Have you found yourself feeling disillusioned by your contraceptive choices? Are you struggling to give constructive feedback in the bedroom? Do you read books while also being a woman? Boy, have we got a show for you.

[Theme music] 

Franki Cookney 00:20 

Hello, and welcome to Mag Hags, the podcast that every modern woman should know. I'm Franki Cookney. 

Lucy Douglas 00:26

And I'm Lucy Douglas. Together we're diving into the glossy archives of women's magazines to find out what's still hot and what's definitely not. 

Franki Cookney 00:37

Hello, and welcome to the very first episode. Lucy, why, why are we here?

Lucy Douglas 00:44

Well Franki, we are here to take a smart, and hopefully funny look at women's magazines from the 1970s, 80s and 90s, celebrating the good, and raising an eyebrow at some of the more questionable takes. 

Franki Cookney 00:58 

Each episode we look at a vintage issue of a magazine, drawing on our experience both as journalists and as magazine readers. We examine the significance of stories for women at the time, how they've led us to where we are today, and what we can learn from that. 

Lucy Douglas 01:13 

Because we both love magazines, don't we? And I think we really wanted to make a podcast that sort of paid homage to these publications that made us want to become journalists in the first place, and explore all these qualities that like made them so popular and relevant and charming in their heyday, but also kind of examining like how complicit they were in some of the stereotypes and messages that we grew up with.

Franki Cookney 01:38

Yeah, definitely. But then I suppose on the flip side, I also think that women's mags sometimes get reviled as superficial, you know, like a bit fluffy. And actually they have the potential to be really agenda setting. 

Lucy Douglas 01.50

And they were! They were agenda setting, like for a long time, way before we had Instagram and TikTok or the internet at all, like we had magazines telling us what was cool and what was on trend. But also like giving us really important information as well about like. healthcare and issues like domestic abuse and things like that that often young women weren't able to get anywhere else.

Franki Cookney 02.12 

Yeah, absolutely. And these publications were really at the vanguard of reporting on women's health, sexual freedom, equal pay, so it had a real serious side. But, what I loved at the time was how they managed to marry that with also being really entertaining and fun. 

Lucy Douglas 02.31 

They're so fun. 

Franki Cookney 02.33

I know. I absolutely devoured magazines as a teenager. What were your faves? 

Lucy Douglas 02.38

Oh, wow. Well, um, so I think like my earliest magazine memories are me and my best friend at primary school, reading like teen mags at sleepovers and stuff, and we were probably about nine or ten. And it was things like Sugar, probably, and Just 17. 

Franki Cookney 02.59

And Bliss. 

Lucy Douglas 03.01

And Bliss, yeah, yeah. I remember we'd like head straight for the problem pages, and there always seemed to be like, so much in those magazines as well about like, snogging boys, even though definitely neither of us were snogging boys at that age.

Franki Cookney 03.12

It was aspirational content. 

Lucy Douglas 03.14

It totally was. And then I think when I was about 13 or 14 I like graduated to reading my older cousin's copies of Marie Claire and things like that on holiday. And obviously like, I was too young to be the target demographic of those, but I remember sort of pouring over them and thinking that they were like, the most impossibly glamorous things I could imagine.

And then from that, yeah, being determined to work in journalism. 

Franki Cookney 03.40

I also read, uh, Cosmopolitan a lot and More. Who could forget More? 

Lucy Douglas 03.45

R. I. P. position of the fortnight. 

Franki Cookney 03.47

Exactly. I would also leaf through my mum's copies of Good Housekeeping and She, I don't know if you remember that one. I would say I was quite fickle back then though. Like I have to say, a lot of the time it was down to what freebies they had. 

Lucy Douglas 04.01

Oh, for sure. For sure. It was a real golden era of freebies as well, I'd say, our youth. What were your favourite freebies? Do you remember in the summer editions of magazines, you could often get like a beach read, like a sort of, um, yeah, like a chick lit paperback.

Franki Cookney 04.17

Yes, or some flip flops. I think for me, it was always makeup. I know that's so basic, but like nail polish, lip gloss, maybe a sample size mascara. Ah!

Lucy Douglas 04.27

Yeah, we do love a makeup sample. And you could often get some like, good brands as well. 

Franki Cookney 04:33

Yeah, just like miniature versions. 

Lucy Douglas 04.35

Yeah, exactly. 

Franki Cookney 04.36

But later on in my teens and early twenties, I have to say that my number one fave was Marie Claire and that was the one that I just always wanted to write for. And the print edition closed down before I ever got to!

Lucy Douglas 04.49

Oh! R I P,  But yeah, I get, I mean, that sort of brings us quite neatly on to like, how the heyday of women's glossies is well and truly over. Like certainly if you look at reader numbers, for instance, like Cosmo's average issue circulation for 2023 was a bit under 120, 000 readers per issue, which by contrast is like, it's about a quarter of what it was in 2000.

Franki Cookney 05.15

Wow. Yeah. 

Lucy Douglas 05.16

And advertising revenue as well is a fraction of what it was during this period that we're looking at, which has kind of made the industry of magazine making ,like a really tricky place. Which is such a shame because there's so much craft and skill that goes into making magazines. 

Franki Cookney 05.33

Yeah.Yeah. I mean, that's not to say they always got it right. I mean, you know, I look back at some of those nineties coverlines and I do kind of think, yikes. Um, but I think, I guess we have to remind ourselves of the context in which they came about and why they might've been worded that way. You know, in many ways, it's not all that different to the sort of click-baity headlines that we see online today or, or the SEO led headlines.

Um, and they can seem a bit cringe, but at the end of the day, what all headlines, what all coverlines are aiming to do is draw readers in. 

Lucy Douglas 06:07

Yeah, for sure. And certainly it was used to be the case that the editors at the big publishing companies were like massively judged on their sales, and they got a huge amount of pressure from their bosses to sell well. And don't forget there was so much competition on the newsstand as well back in the day. So. It's tricky because when you're under constant pressure to hit targets you can sort of become a little bit conservative in your decision making, like you find a formula that works and you repeat it. Which is kind of sadly ironic because these like really great magazines in their heyday were all really bold and creative and the editors were kind of taking risks and being really daring and interesting.

Franki Cookney 06:47

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, while some of the advice and headlines seem funny or dated or even shocking to us now, you know, they're, they're part of the tapestry of how we got to where we are. 

Lucy Douglas 06:59

Is that a tapestry that we're going to unpick by any chance, Franki? 

Franki Cookney 07:03: 

We're going to do our best.

[Music break]

Okay, Lucy, picture the scene. It's a crisp autumn day. Okay. You've just come back from seeing Blade Runner at the pictures. While you were there, you saw a trailer for the new one by, uh, that guy who did Jaws? It's about, like, an alien that comes to live with a little boy? What is it? Is it IT? EG? PE? Who knows? Anyway, it'll be out at Christmas. So you've come home, you've put on a bit of Culture Club and you're wearing like a gigantic cardigan. Actually, I want to say you're wearing two cardigans. I think maybe you've got like a little knitted waistcoat and then a cardigan over the top of that. 

Lucy Douglas 07:47: 

Wow. 

Franki Cookney 07:48

And you've got some earrings on, which if they are anything like the model on the cover of our magazine, they're a kind of abstract shape and they're a sparkly white with a gold rim.

Lucy Douglas 07:58

I mean, it does sound like some earrings I would wear, so fair. 

Franki Cookney 08:02

Yeah. So that's you, and you're about to pick up your copy of, what is it? It's Cosmopolitan, October 1982. 

Lucy Douglas 08:14

Amazing, I'm so glad we're starting with Cosmopolitan. 

Franki Cookney 08:18

Are you ready to check out what's on the cover? 

Lucy Douglas 08:20

I definitely am. 

Franki Cookney 08:21

We have got, it's lovely, but… tactful sex tactics.

Lucy Douglas 08.22

Amazing. 

Franki Cookney 08.23

Body workshop. How to have a flat stomach. 

Lucy Douglas 08.23

Classic.

Franki Cookney 08.24

On the pill for 21 years. Cosmo reports. What every woman should know about men and marriage. I absolutely love this because I feel like this is such 80s magazine copy. What every modern woman should know. 

Lucy Douglas 08.44

Yeah, that is classic, journalese, isn't it?

Franki Cookney 08.49

Totally yeah. So then we've got a contest, there's an excerpt of some fiction, uh, and then we've got love and violence, the shocking alliance, and sex, society, and the strapless top. 

Lucy Douglas 09.03

Amazing. 

Franki Cookney 09.04

And the final one. A woman's place is in the house. Take our course that paves the way to 

power. 

Lucy Douglas 09.11

Okay, I'm guessing, like, is house capped up?

Franki Cookney 09.15

House is capped up, yes. 

Lucy Douglas 09.16

Okay, so are we talking, like, the House of Commons? 

Franki Cookney 09.19

Absolutely, because this is cosmopolitan 1982 and, you know, women…

Lucy Douglas 09. 24 

Women be girl bossing in 1982. 

Franki Cookney 09.28

Yeah, but they wouldn't have called it girl bossing back then, would they? 

Lucy Douglas 09.32

No, they were having it all.

Franki Cookney 09.36

Of course! 

Lucy Douglas 09.37

Yeah, actually, so having it all was coined like pretty much around this time. Um, that, that sort of term, having it all, it was coined by Helen Gurley Brown, who was the editor in chief of U. S. Cosmopolitan at this time. She's actually listed on the flannel panel of this, of Cosmo UK as the editorial director. And in 1982, actually, she published a book called Having It All: Love, Success, Sex, Money, even if you're starting with nothing.

Franki Cookney 10.07

I mean, I want all of those things.

Lucy Douglas 10.12

That is the All.

Franki Cookney 10.14

And so just to confirm, so women started having it all in 1982. When did they stop? And. Have I missed my window? 

[Music break] 

The first feature I want to talk to you about is called The Pill That Promised So Much, and it's the one from the cover about on the pill for 21 years. And, I think you can already tell from the title that it's probably going to be a bit of a downer, like the pill that promised so much is suggesting that it did not deliver.

Lucy Douglas 10.49

Cosmo is underwhelmed. 

Franki Cookney 10.51

Right. Expectation versus reality. So can you guess what my first thing was that I noticed about this feature? 

Lucy Douglas 10.57

Is it the fact that it's got a male byline? 

Franki Cookney 11.01

Yes, it was written by a man. 

Lucy Douglas 11.05

Yeah, I mean, that was so glaring when I looked at it because it just, that just wouldn't happen now. 

Franki Cookney 11.11

I know, I cannot conceive of a man being commissioned to write a sort of retrospective on contraception. 

Lucy Douglas 11.17

Yeah. And you know, what's even funnier as well is that he's not like an expert. He's not like a medical expert that's been drafted in to write this piece. He's one of the features assistants. He's one of the most junior writers on the staff.

Franki Cookney 11.30

I mean, to be fair, in terms of the research he does, I don't think he does a bad job of it. But it is a very different read to what it would be today. And I mean, for a start, there are just a lot of men in it. You know, he's quoting a few different books, one called The Pill and one called The Politics of Contraception, both of those written by men. And, you know, to some extent that's kind of reflecting the fact that those would have been the people writing those books at the time and getting them published. But I still had this real sense of like, okay, I'm two entire pages into this feature and I've only heard from men so far. Oh, wait, actually, no, I do tell a lie. There is a small quote from Germaine Greer, our writer, Peter Freedman, he did not speak to her for this piece, but um, he quotes something that she said elsewhere. Later on in the final pages, he does quote the Family Planning Association press officer who's a woman, Rosemary Goodchild, and someone else from the FPA, uh, just a quick sidebar. Because this woman is called Zandria Pauncefort.

Lucy Douglas 12.33

I absolutely love that name. Um, it feels extremely 80s and I feel like I've got quite a vivid picture of Zandria in my head. Like she has a very large perm. 

Franki Cookney 12.45

Okay, interesting. See, I was thinking more of the kind of bouffant with a black velvet headband. 

Lucy Douglas 12.52

Oh, okay. Sort of like Sloane Rangery type. 

Franki Cookney 12.54 

Yeah, totally. 

Lucy Douglas 12.56

But I mean, to be fair to Zandria, like what she says, I think is really interesting, and it still kind of rings true. Like towards the end of her quote, she says: ‘Granted, contraceptive choices are wider now than 25 years or even 10 years ago, but people's expectations have risen even further, and it is this failure to meet them that has, that creates disillusionment.’

I think that's so, like, like that could apply now, like fast forward 40 years and we're still having the same conversations about the fact with all the contraception that's available to us, like none of it is perfect, especially hormonal contraception. 

Franki Cookney 13.34

Yeah. Yeah. I know. And also the quote that, I mean, I mentioned a second ago that he quotes Germaine Greer, and what she says is: ‘Women are still giving up the pill, not because of the occasional fatality, but because of the chronic trivial side effects, which are, after all, not so trivial.’ 

And, you know, that's absolutely still the case, right? When you read these articles about why, um, you know, I feel like there was a bit of spate of them a couple of years ago, like why I'm coming off the contraceptive pill. And those are precisely the kinds of things that people are citing, their moods, the effect on their skin. All this sort of stuff. 

Lucy Douglas 14.09

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I have a couple of bones to pick with Peter Freedman, the feature's assistant, who had absolutely no business writing this feature. One thing I'm kind of, I feel like he's being a bit misleading about some of the science. He does a little divergence of the pill and onto the coil when he's talking about how, like, once women realised some of the risks associated with the pill, they, they switched to the IUD when that came on the market. And there's this bit where he says, like: 'No more hormones. No more hassle. There was good news and then there was better news when new IUDs were developed, which for the first time was suitable for women who hadn't yet had children. Loop before you leap became the new motto. Then there was the bad news. Apart from the heavier periods and the cramps suffered by some women, the IUD, it turned out, increased the risk of pregnancy developed in the fallopian tubes.’ It's not true, is it, Peter? 

Franki Cookney 15:10

Is it not true? 

Lucy Douglas 15:12

No, no, it's, um, so it's a little, it's more nuanced than that, right? It, it is. It is true that if you did, if you did happen to get pregnant while you had a coil fitted, there is a slightly increased risk that that pregnancy could be ectopic.

However, your chance of getting pregnant at all with an IUD, i. e. like with a coil fitted, is so much lower. that overall, your risk of having an ectopic pregnancy is still way less. 

Franki Cookney 15.45

Lower than it would be for someone who's actively trying to conceive. 

Lucy Douglas 15.47

Yeah, yeah, significantly lower. Okay, so some of the numbers I found, according to this quote from the International Journal of Women's Health, ectopic pregnancy affects an estimated two out of 10, 000 women with a hormonal IUD each year. And it affects 5 out of 10, 000 women with a copper IUD each year. And in comparison, more than 1 in 100 sexually active women who don't use birth control will have an ectopic pregnancy over the course of a year. 

Franki Cookney 16.21

Oh, wow. Yeah, that does read as a bit scaremongering now you put it in context.

Lucy Douglas 16.26

Exactly.

Franki Cookney 16.30

I did think that quite a lot of this feels a bit just like punchy copy, do you know what I mean? Like the line in there that you just mentioned, loop before you leap became the new motto. Occasionally, it seems a bit like he's making a claim just so he can use like a neat little phrase that he's come up with. 

Lucy Douglas 16.44

Yeah, for sure. I actually wrote here in my notes, like style over substance. There's so much, yeah, he's written this sentence: ‘Many of those who clamoured for the pill's early introduction have turned and realigned themselves with the Catholic Church in opposition to oral contraception.’ It's like, have they? 

Franki Cookney 17.02

Yeah. 

Lucy Douglas 17.04

I’m gonna need names, Peter. 

Franki Cookney 17.08

While we're talking about the writing, can I read you the intro and just, um…just give me your thoughts. Okay? 

‘The tale about the woman who washed down her pill with a glass full of pond water and soon found herself three months stagnant is maybe just another apocryphal contraceptive scare story, but that tale and others like it reflect a real enough mood of public unease about the safety and side effects of contraceptive methods.’

Lucy Douglas 17.32

Come again? 

Franki Cookney 17.35

I know. 

Lucy Douglas 17.39

The woman who washed down her pill with a glass of pond water. What? 

Franki Cookney 17.44

And soon found herself three months…STAGNANT.

Lucy Douglas 17.48

Like, was that meant to be a sort of cultural touch point that's gone over our heads? 

Franki Cookney 17.53

I know, I'm like, was this doing the dinner party rounds in 1982? Ha ha, three months stagnant. Um, however, what I think it does show is that is that there's clearly a lot more freedom for writers in the early 80s. 

Lucy Douglas 18.06

Yeah, yeah, for sure. 

Franki Cookney 18.08

And you know, we, you know, we talked about loop before you leap, but there's all kinds of little things like that where I think now that would just be seen as self indulgent.

Lucy Douglas 18.16

Oh yeah, no, you wouldn't get away with that at all. But I, and I think the feature wouldn't be reported like this today. 

Franki Cookney 18.24

No, no, definitely not. That being said, There are a few bits that I quite like. So, for example, towards the end, he just casually quotes Margaret Atwood. 

Lucy Douglas 18.34

Yeah, that's, I noticed that's so interesting.

Franki Cookney 18.38

Right. And like, Margaret Atwood was a pretty popular writer at the time. Um, the book he quotes is Surfacing. Uh, but she hadn't written The Handmaid's Tale yet. She hadn't won the Bookers or anything yet. 

Lucy Douglas 18.48

Yeah, I was going to say that we're like three years out from The Handmaid's Tale here. 

Franki Cookney 18.51 

Right. So, I just think it's really interesting that it felt completely natural to quote an author that readers might or might not have read. And I just don't think you would do that now. 

Lucy Douglas 19.03

Probably not. But I guess on the flip side, Mag copy would reference like TV shows and things like that that are big in pop culture or like films or song lyrics. 

Franki Cookney 19.14 

Yeah, that's true. I mean, literally everything I have read over the last three months has mentioned ‘brat’. Is that the 2024 equivalent of quoting Margaret Atwood? 

Lucy Douglas 19.24

I also think something else that's interesting is the fact that he's written this feature at all. Like I know we've talked about the fact that he's a man writing it, but the fact that he's the features assistant, writing this four page lead feature, that's like one of the lead cover stories of this issue. Like I feel like that doesn't. happen really anymore. Like, I definitely feel like this was a time in journalism when you could have loads of opportunities as a junior writer on staff and be writing lots of features and getting really good stories on the cover and make a name for yourself and get lots of bylines, even when you weren't that experienced.

Franki Cookney 20.02

Yeah. Yeah. So just quickly going back to the writing and, and sort of the way that the feature has been put together, other than the fact that it was written by a man. As I was reading it, there was quickly another kind of glaring omission. I wonder if you can figure out what it was. 

Lucy Douglas 20.20

Is it the lack of case studies?

Franki Cookney 20.23

Oh my god, yes! There are no personal stories in this feature. 

Lucy Douglas 20.28

Yeah, I mean that was so striking to me because it's just so different to how it would be now, like not only would a feature like this, like why we're unhappy with the contraceptive pill, why we as women are unhappy with the contraceptive pill would be entirely case study based. Like the commissioning editor would also tell you exactly which case studies they wanted you to get. 

Franki Cookney 20.54 

Yeah, like I found it jarring. Like I was reading this feature thinking I, I want to hear from some people about their experience.

Lucy Douglas 21.06

Well, yeah, exactly. And that's sort of what I was, um, trying to say, like when he's making these sweeping generalisations about how everybody's apparently reverting back to Catholicism, uh, by rejecting contraception. It's like, but Peter, you can't find one person who's actually done that. 

Franki Cookney 21.28

Yeah. And there's that whole bit, isn't there, where he says, um, ‘We've never had it so good or so often, or so we thought.’

And then he says: ‘Twenty years on and the mood has soured. Now the talk is of the sexual counter revolution and the new celibacy.’

And I'm like. I feel like I need some evidence for that. Like, who's talking about the new celibacy, you know? 

Lucy Douglas 21.49

It is quite a magazine thing to do, isn't it though? And that, and, definitely something that still happens, like editors sitting around a table in a meeting room being like, ‘celibacy, is that a thing now? Can we, can we spin that? Is that a trend? You got any mileage out of that?’ I mean, like, didn't an editor come to you once and ask you to write a feature on how like vanilla sex is back? 

Franki Cookney 22.15

That’s true. Yeah. I was like, where did it go? I don't think it went anywhere. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so that definitely does still happen, but I think the first thing that you would do in that situation is you go out and find two or three case studies of people talking about why they're embracing celibacy as a backlash to the side effects of the pill. And he has not done that. So it's just him saying, oh, by the way, we're all into celibacy now. 

Lucy Douglas 22.44

Yeah. That said, like, I am interested in what he says about the rising tide of sexually transmitted disease. 

Franki Cookney 22.51

Okay, yeah, I'm glad you spotted that. Um, I also found that interesting and it's obviously quite prophetic in ways that he couldn't possibly have known because at this point of time, 1982, we are just on the cusp of the HIV/AIDS crisis. So in 1982, people knew there was a new disease going around and it was definitely making its way into the mainstream. So for example, the New York times published its first piece in which it mentioned the term GRID, which stood for gay related immune deficiency. Um, it published that piece that year, but as the name suggests, it was still definitely seen as like a gay disease.

Um, and it was actually first reported as a type of gay pneumonia and like, you know, the name AIDS was only adopted in September, like a month before this publication came out. So. you know, the word AIDS was not even in general use yet. And HIV itself, of course, was not discovered until 1983. So I think this slightly vague wording, like rising tide of sexually transmitted disease, I don't know, I feel like that really reflects that kind of state of uncertainty and unease.

Lucy Douglas 24.05

Yeah. I also wonder how, like, how something like that would have appeared in the consciousness of sexually active young women at the time. You know, would Cosmo readers have felt it like applied to them? Would they have seen it as a realistic threat, for them? 

Franki Cookney 24.21

Yeah, that's a really good point. Because of course, the big public health campaigns around it didn't kick off until sort of like ‘86, ‘87. And so it's entirely possible that, you know, a young straight woman reading this would have just glossed over it. Nevertheless, I think from our point of view,  for us here in 2024, reading a reference like this to it in 1982 just fails. really poignant, doesn't it? 

Lucy Douglas 24.46

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, beyond that, like when I read the feature, the whole thing did sort of feel, it felt quite negative. Like the pill sucks and everyone's gone off sex. Um, so I, I kind of wanted to get an opinion of like, not necessarily an expert, but like, so, so I asked my mum about this. Um, well, because, so when this was published, she was 26. Um, so like prime cosmo demographic age at the time, um, she was also on the pill at the time and she was also a junior doctor prescribing the pill at the time. So I thought that she would have like a good perspective. So yes, I asked her what she remembered the vibe around the pill sort of being at this point in the early eighties. And she said:

‘I did my family planning course, um, because that's what sexual medicine was called at the time, family planning. I did my family planning course in 82, 83, so pretty close in time, and in general the pill was considered the mainstay of women's contraception. Women were definitely in favour of the control that it gave them. There were concerns about the blood clot risk from doctors more than women themselves, and the lower oestrogen dose were coming on stream. Coils were less in favour at that time and were associated with a view of being,’ she's written some medical word I can't pronounce, um, and when I asked for a definition she said they allowed fertilisation but prevented implantation.

Franki Cookney 26.10

Got it. 

Lucy Douglas 26.13

‘So if women had views on that sort of thing, presumably like religious views, um, then the pill was a better option.’ Um, and she also said: ‘Don't forget that women are still enjoying the sense of having increased empowerment with respect to their fertility. Family planning clinics were numerous and GPs were prescribing liberally.’

Franki Cookney 26.34 

So thanks to your mum, we finally have a vox pop, a much needed personal angle to add to this feature. 

Lucy Douglas 26.39

A vox pop 42 years on. 

Franki Cookney 26.42

Should we take an ad break, Lucy? 

Lucy Douglas 26.43

I think we should. 

Franki Cookney 26.44

Not your usual sort of ad break though. 

Lucy Douglas 26.48

No, these adverts were taken directly from the pages of Cosmopolitan October 1982. 

Franki Cookney 27.00

Genuine vintage ads.

Lucy Douglas 27.01

With a little bit of artistic licence. 

Franki Cookney 27.03

Of course, of course. 

Lucy Douglas 27.02

Let’s do it.

Franki Cookney 27.03

 Okay, thanks so much for tuning in. We'll be right back after the ads. 

[Jingle]

Lucy Douglas 27.12 

Do you know what I really hate Franki?

Franki Cookney 27.13

What's that, Lucy? 

Lucy Douglas 27.14

I really hate when I'm in the shower and a vintage car just comes crashing through the bathroom wall.

Franki Cookney 27.21

Gosh, that does sound like you have your fair share of problems, but at least there's one thing you needn't worry about.

Lucy Douglas 27.29 

It’s true. My tampon isn't one of them. Each Tampax tampon comes with a special applicator, so it feels comfortable and natural. 

Franki Cookney 27.37

And although you'll hardly notice it, you can count on it being reliable. 

Lucy Douglas 27.39

Thanks, Tampax. 

[Jingle]

Franki Cookney 27.40

Oh, Lucy, I'm stuck. What should I have for dinner tonight? 

Lucy Douglas 27.48

Ah, the eternal question. 

Franki Cookney 27.50

When you have to cook for a family every day, it's not easy coming up with fresh ideas.

Lucy Douglas 27.54

Unless you cook with British lamb, that is. British lamb is consistently tender and economical. 

Franki Cookney 28.00

Oh my goodness. Can I have some ideas for how to cook it? Can I have, like, twenty-five?

Lucy Douglas 28.07

Franki, you're in luck. How about Lancashire Hot Pot or Shepherd's Pie? Or for something more exotic, try savoury stuffed pancakes or tangy lamb spare ribs.

Franki Cookney 28.13

Wow, British lamb is unusually versatile. 

Lucy Douglas 28.18

There's more. How about a lamb cobbler? Or, when you're really scraping the barrel, simply serve some lamb neck cutlets along with sliced liver and kidneys and call it a mixed grill. 

Franki Cookney 28.32

It sounds like there's almost no limit to the number of dishes it can make.

Lucy Douglas 28.36

British lamb makes more dishes than you've had hot dinners. 

[Jingle]

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Welcome back after the break, guys. That ad break featuring real ads from this issue of Cosmopolitan, which did indeed feature a double page spread advertorial for British Lamb. 

Franki Cookney 28.57

Truly incredible. I'm actually crying a little bit. Um, some of them, I may, I may give him a whirl. Probably not the mixed grill. That sounded a bit gross. 

Lucy Douglas 29.06

Maybe we should start some like, um, subscribers only content where it's just us making the recipes from the British lamb advertorial. 

Franki Cookney 29.14

Oh my god, please, can we do that? Also, um, while we're just briefly talking about the ads, I actually just remembered that in 1982, that was probably about the time that our king, King Charles, was saying to Camilla that he would like to be her Tampax. Nobody could see Lucy’s reaction, but you just have to trust me that it was really good. 

Lucy Douglas 29.83

Do you know, I didn't know that story until I watched it on The Crown. And when I watched it, I was like, I was so aghast because it felt like it was, it felt like hearing my own father, like not, I hasten to add, not because I'm such a staunch royalist that I think of King Charles as a father figure, like it, like it just made me that uncomfortable.

[Music break]

Franki Cookney 30.07

The next picture is not a cover story. Uh, it's not a big feature, but when I was looking through the magazine, I was just really fascinated by it. Um, so it's called ‘Talking It Out’. And then at the top of the page, the slug says ‘Cosmo Counselling’. 

Lucy Douglas 30.22 

Ooh, okay. Do we think this is like a regular feature that they have in every issue?

Franki Cookney 30.26

Yeah, it looks like it might be. Yeah. Um, so it's sort of, it's sort of billing itself as counselling. Um, there don't seem to be any counsellors present. Uh, the people who are kind of hosting, sort of facilitating this feature are a couple, uh, they're both journalists, Erin Pizzey and Jeff Shapiro. Now, let's talk about them for a moment because Erin Pizzey is actually a major feminist activist. Um, she founded what's now Refuge, you know, the domestic violence charity. 

Lucy Douglas 30.53

Oh, wow. 

Franki Cookney 30.54

Yeah. So she founded that. It was called, uh, Chiswick Women's Aid, uh, in 1972. And then it later changed its name to Refuge. And she's really interesting. She was doing kind of groundbreaking stuff around domestic violence, but then she actually left Refuge and she kind of, she almost sort of broke with the way that, um, women's shelters were going, um, for reasons that I'll come to in a minute. And then later on, much, much later on, she started saying that she thought feminism was a lie and the sort of focus on women as victims of men is something that she just didn't hold with at all. You know, she just thought it was a lot more complicated. But then, since then, um, she's gone all the way to the other side and last I heard she was working for a men's rights organisation.

Lucy Douglas 31.41

Oh my gosh. 

Franki Cookney 31.42

I know.

Lucy Douglas 31.43

That's fascinating. 

Franki Cookney 31.44

I know. Super interesting but also controversial. There was a big retrospective of her in the Atlantic a few years ago which is really worth a read if you're interested in finding out more and I read that at the time which is obviously why when I saw her name in this issue of Cosmo I was like, hang on a minute, what's she doing here? But wait, it gets better. She's married to Jeff Shapiro, the guy she's doing this feature with. And they wrote a book about domestic violence together. And that book is featured later in this same issue of Cosmopolitan. And it's the one about love and violence, The Shocking Alliance, that was on our cover.

Lucy Douglas 32.30

Okay, I'm fascinated. 

Franki Cookney 32.32

Yeah, the plot thickens. 

Lucy Douglas 32.33

I’m in. 

Franki Cookney 32.34 

The book itself was really controversial because the angle they take with it is looking at the women who sort of get trapped in patterns where they keep going back to their abuser. I mean, the language they use at the time is so inflammatory that I'm almost a bit nervous to kind of say it out loud on the podcast. But, you know, she uses phrases like ‘addicted to the violence’ and ‘courting the violence.’ What she's trying to say is that these kinds of relationships are a lot more complicated than they seem, and one of her issues was that a lot of shelters at the time refused to take in women if they had a history of going back to their partners. And so Erin Pizzey was trying to get a more nuanced conversation going, you know, saying it's not that simple and more crucially, we can't turn people away like these women are in danger, regardless of their behaviour, they're in danger, we're doing them a huge disservice if we make it that black and white, but obviously that's one of the reasons why she became controversial because there was this big disagreement about who should be allowed into these shelters. You see? 

Lucy Douglas 33.36 

I mean that's fascinating. 

Franki Cookney 33.38

I know, I know. We could do a whole minisode about Erin Pizzey because our whole life is interesting. 

Lucy Douglas 33.43 

Do a whole series about her. 

Franki Cookney 33.45 

Literally. But yeah, so this, so this is the person who is in this room doing this counselling. But okay, basically what's happened is some chap called David has read an article that Erin wrote two years previously. Um, she wrote an article called ‘What's wrong with celibacy?’ which actually makes me think maybe that's what Peter Freedman was talking about when he said people returning to celibacy.

Lucy Douglas 34.02 

Okay, fair. I'll let you off, Peter.

Franki Cookney 34.04

You know, a more explicit reference would have been useful, you know, for those of us who don't have a sort of, um, encyclopaedic knowledge of, uh, every single issue of Cosmopolitan. But anyway, so David's written in basically saying that no one's looked at celibacy from a man's point of view. 

Lucy Douglas 34.22

What about the men? 

Franki Cookney 34.25

Exactly. But instead of just, you know, putting that on the reader's letters page, they've brought David in, sat him in a room with Erin and Jeff and had them, like, talk it out.

Lucy Douglas 34.43 

Okay. Okay. So what's David's issue apart from the fact that they haven't discussed celibacy from a man's point of view? What's David's burning position on celibacy that he felt so compelled to write in?

Franki Cookney 34.57

I mean, I guess he just wanted to share his experience, which, which he does. Um, you know, he talks about having lived with a girlfriend and it kind of didn't work out. And then he decided to, you know, for whatever reason he swore off sex, but the conversation really quickly gets quite combative. 

Lucy Douglas 35.16 

As all good counselling sessions should. 

Franki Cookney 35.19

Oh yeah, I feel like David has turned up and is sort of trying to explain his experience and he's just having these two people get quite cross with him.

Lucy Douglas 35.28

I do, I have to say, like, I was absolutely obsessed with this feature, like it's so completely unhinged, like the premise is kind of like, a sort of proto Esther Perel type feature, but gone wrong. The language of the whole thing and the whole tone is so like, buck up, and very sort of cruel to be kind and tough love, which feels so, so of its time. Like very sort of, you, you can't expect to be happy if you're just going to sit around whinging. 

Franki Cookney 36.00 

Yeah, it's kind of a bit Thatcher in that way, isn't it? What's wild about it as well is that there's so much editorialising. Every time Erin or Jeff say anything, the copy sort of reads, ‘Jeff pointed out,’ ‘Erin asked,’ ‘Jeff said,’ but every time David says something. It's like, ‘asked David a little desperately’ and ‘glared David in response.’ He's really been stitched up. 

Lucy Douglas 36.25

So like the whole second half of this feature is them like, having a go at him for not committing to Gillian, his ex girlfriend, and like not being wild about the idea of settling down and getting married. But like, okay. So right at the beginning of the piece says that David is 23. Like we get that information in the first line, he's 23. And then we learned that he broke up with Gillian two years ago and that he'd been living with her for 18 months. Okay. So if we do that maths, that means that he got into this relationship with Gillian when he was 19. Leave David alone, guys. He's so young. 

Franki Cookney 37.06

Really don't think he deserves this. But there are some great lines. Erin's saying, ‘You should remain celibate until a relationship comes along that is good and honest and which allows you both to grow and be fulfilled.’ And David says, a little desperately. Wait, hang on.

I'm going to try and conjure David's tone. 

Lucy Douglas 37.21

David's desperation. 

Franki Cookney 37.23

‘“But where do you meet that sort of woman?” “You won’t,” Erin said, “until you deal with your need for mothering.”’ Mic drop. I want to find David and ask him if he's okay, like, 40 years later. I mean, we know that he's a 23 year old graphic designer for an advertising agency, so I think we should be able to find him no problem.

Lucy Douglas 37.43

Get on LinkedIn.

[Music]

Franki Cookney 37.48

Hello, Franki here. Just a quick one to say if you have not yet signed up for our newsletter, you definitely should. You can read the features we talk about, see all the amazing vintage adverts, and get access to loads of other bonus bits. Plus, it's a really good way to support the show. Find us at maghags.substack.com.

[Music] 

Franki Cookney 38:08

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single woman in possession of a copy of Cosmopolitan must be in want of some sex tips. 

Lucy Douglas 38.16

My god, yes! 

Franki Cookney 38.19 

Or a married woman for that matter. Either way, I have got a brilliant feature for you. The headline is ‘It's lovely, but…’ and it's about how to give feedback in bed, or I mean, not necessarily literally when you're in bed, but anytime you want to sort of gently steer your partner's lovemaking, they do use terms like lovemaking with abandon. So funnily enough, I feel like you might be expecting me to absolutely rinse this feature, but um, I went through it, and obviously the language is funny and it's dated, but the advice is pretty good. So listen to this. ‘Honest talk about sex is still uncomfortable for most people. The criticism that implies one is not a good lover strikes at the most fragile and sensitive component of self esteem. But we seldom stop to think how strange this is. No one automatically assumes that he or she, without schooling and experience, could become a competent artist, craftsman, scientist, or chef. Likewise, no one is born with a special talent for sex.’

Lucy Douglas 39.30

Yeah, I mean, literally one of your interviewees on your last podcast, Bad Sex, like literally made that exact point.

Franki Cookney 39.39 

Yeah. And so, when I read that, I was kind of like, oh, good. We have learned nothing. 

Lucy Douglas 39.49

In 40 years. Excellent. 

Franki Cookney 39.51

Similarly, a bit later, it says, you know, therapists often get asked by couples how often they should have sex, how long foreplay should last, etc. And it says, ‘But there are no rules, no shoulds and shouldn'ts, no rights and wrongs.’

And I mean, that's a sentence I could have written in a feature this week. There was one thing though, actually, which sort of struck me as being outdated, uh, it's talking about how sometimes we don't even have to say anything to express our disinterest or displeasure. It says, ‘A man who suddenly loses his erection or a woman who fails to lubricate may be simply using their bodies to say that their partner is failing to excite them.’

And that is a really good example of where our understanding of human sexuality has moved on. Now we know that people can lose their erections for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with their attraction to their partner. And similarly, people can get erections or can get wet without actually feeling aroused.

Lucy Douglas 40.42

It's got a name, hasn't it?

Franki Cookney 40.44

Yeah, it's called arousal non-concordance. And yeah, it doesn't, it really doesn't necessarily mean that you're not having a good time if you're not wet, you're not hard. So that line felt icky to me. And I did kind of feel like, oh no, you know, like people at the time will have read that and felt really ashamed. But beyond that. Would you like some sex tips from 1982? 

Lucy Douglas 41.03

Yes, please. 

Franki Cookney 41.04

‘When you are criticising somebody in bed, use I statements.’ Timeless advice. ‘Phrase your criticism in terms of I rather than you. Rather than say, “Why do we always have to have the lights out?” Say, “I love to see your body and face when we're making love.”’

Next one. Positive reinforcement. 

Lucy Douglas 41.25

I like it when you do that.

Franki Cookney 41.26

‘Focus on what you do like. Instead of saying, “I don't enjoy it when you fondle me so roughly”, say, “I really love it when you touch me gently.”’

Lucy Douglas 41.37

Perfect. I will use that. 

Franki Cookney 41.38

I think just generally avoiding the phrase ‘fondle me so roughly’ is good advice. Be specific. You know, like, touch me. Here! And then building on that, show don't tell. ‘So next time you're making love, the therapist suggested you take the initiative. “Take his hand and place it on your breast. Move his hand the way you want him to move it. Tell him you like the way that feels. By demonstrating what you want your husband to do, and by showing how you respond to his touch, you will be more likely to change his pattern of love play.”’

Lucy Douglas 42.09 

Husband. Lol. I mean, I am glad that women are getting like decent sexual advice in 1982. 

Franki Cookney 42.17

Yeah, I mean, it is not bad advice. It's just the language that's funny, really. 

[Music break] 

Franki Cookney 42.22

Are you ready for your fashion tip of the week? 

Lucy Douglas 42.27

Yes, I definitely am. 

Franki Cookney 42.28

Your fashion tip of the week, Lucy, is black denim. And this is taken from a piece of advertorial for a brand called Gloria Vanderbilt, but it caught my eye. So what you've got to look for when you're buying black denim is as follows: ‘Most black denim is dyed after weaving so appears black inside and out genuine black denim is black outside and white inside which shows the denim was dyed before weaving And we'll keep it strong black looks for a long time.’ So, if you would like a black denim, sort of midi skirt with splits up the side to wear with some sheer polka dot tights like the woman in the picture is wearing, that is what you should be looking for. Black on the outside, white on the inside. 

Lucy Douglas 43.20 

I mean, that's a genuinely really good tip. I've never heard that before.

Franki Cookney 43.22

I know, I was gonna say, I've literally never heard that. Do you want to know how much a Gloria Vanderbilt black denim skirt cost in 1982?

Lucy Douglas 43.23

Is it 12 pounds?

Franki Cookney 43.25

It's actually a little bit more than that. It is £17.95. 

Lucy Douglas 43.30

£17.95? Okay, what's that in real money?

Franki Cookney 43.32

I am literally just typing it into our currency converter as we speak.

Lucy Douglas 43.37

The inflation calculator. 

Franki Cookney 43.45

Yeah, 81 pounds. So, this is quite a pricey skirt, kind of top end of the high street, it's like a, it's like a Cos or a Whistles maybe?

Lucy Douglas 43.49

Yeah, okay.

Franki Cookney 43.51

And that skirt in the picture, I love it, I would totally wear that. If my mum had bought that skirt in 1982, I would gladly take it off her hands now.

Lucy Douglas 44.00

Okay, and what about my beauty tip of the week? 

Franki Cookney 44.02

Oh Lucy, you, you're gonna go mad for this one, this is an absolute classic. I think this is really going to take you back to your teenage years of reading magazines because… It's a DIY one! 

Lucy Douglas 44.14

Oh yes, perfect. 

Franki Cookney 44.16

Soften your feet with a simple rough skin remover. Mix two tablespoons of yoghourt with half a tablespoon of cider vinegar. Rub well into hard skin. Leave for 10 minutes and wash off. Follow with a warm foot bath. 

Lucy Douglas 44.38

Hey, do you know what? I am going to do that tomorrow night after my run and I will let you know how it goes. 

[Music break]

Franki Cookney 44.38

When is a book not a book?

Lucy Douglas 44.39

I have no idea Franki.

Franki Cookney 44.47 

When it's a women's paperback. 

Lucy Douglas 44.48

Excuse me?

Franki Cookney 44.49

So, this is a feature called ‘Frills or Thrills: Why should your sex decide what you read?’ And I will kick off by just reading you the standfirst. When is a book not a book? When it's a women's paperback? But now that publishers are trying new techniques to please their female readership, could you be missing out? What I'm getting from that is that women's paperback books are not considered proper books, but that's changing?

Lucy Douglas 45.18

Yeah, okay. So I feel like, I feel like from that we're talking specifically about you're like, you're Mills and Boon type romance story. Like those kinds of imprints that are like straight to paperback, very, um, quick read fiction that you can like devour. And yes, kind of very sort of romance-based, bonkbustery type books.

Franki Cookney 45.44

Yeah. So it's kind of like, yeah, these sort of women's paper books, like fun, trashy fiction, not considered proper books, but publishing houses are realising that they can make a lot of money from them. So. What you've got now in 1982 is all these new imprints are popping up, as you're saying, and there's this big burst of new titles on the market. Now, the writer, what I love about this is, I feel like she's been commissioned to write about this trend, but she doesn't approve of it. 

Lucy Douglas 46.13 

Yeah, I really got that impression too. Like, Anne Boston has been commissioned to write this against her will. Like, she is not into the frills or the thrills. 

Franki Cookney 46.23

I mean, she's sort of reporting it because she has. But then there are all these sort of slightly snide remarks like, ‘We're awash in a flood of romance with hardly a sign of dry land ahead.’ She talks about all the different imprints and she's spoken to a writer, uh, or you know, an author who's apparently coining it with these sort of trashy romance novels.

And then she does concede that there are a few that she's sort of okay with, like she's a little bit more on board with. Um, she says: ‘All in all, you should find some splendid reading in Pavanne, which makes it all the more irritating that the books are decked out in dainty pastel covers with breathlessly romantic plot descriptions on the back.’ She's so pissed off.

Lucy Douglas 46.56 

She's furious. One thing I did genuinely find quite interesting about this feature, It says something, it's when, it's like, like in the intro when it's teeing up this whole, the whole premise of, and like why they're reporting this story at all, and why publishers are suddenly paying attention to female readers. It says something about how surveys are showing that women buy up to 10 percent more paperbacks than men, which is, like, that feels absolutely bonkers now, like, I don't work in publishing, so I don't know the exact numbers off my head, but I'm sort of led to believe that like female readers, specifically female readers aged between sort of like 30 and 65 make up like the vast, vast majority of the fiction buying market.

Franki Cookney 47.42

Because that's us, right? We are the book buyers. 

Lucy Douglas 47.44

Yeah, we buy books. But surely it hasn't changed like that drastically in 40 years? Like, in just shy of our lifetimes, have men just stopped reading? I mean, I do, I will concede that there's like, there's a lot more content now competing for everyone's attention. So it's natural that people maybe read less because there's like 4 million streaming services to keep on top of and there's podcasts and there's the entire internet. 

Franki Cookney 48.10

And yet here we are creating more content. Content about content, no less. But yeah, I think overall this feature is kind of funny because it can't quite decide what it wants to be. Is it a sort of reporting on this empowering new trend or is it giving a little bit of side eye at what it considers to be silly, fluffy nonsense? 

Lucy Douglas 48.28

I think it's kind of trying to do both. 

[Music break]

Franki Cookney 48.30 

At the end of each episode. We like to ask, what is hot and what is not? In this case, in October 1982. What do you think, Lucy?

Lucy Douglas 48.43

What's hot, apparently, is celibacy and Catholicism. 

Franki Cookney 48.48

And British lamb, don't forget British lamb. 

Lucy Douglas 48.51

Of course. 

Franki Cookney 48.52

And what is not?

Lucy Douglas 48.54

Well, I think, according to Anne Boston, romance paperbacks.

Franki Cookney 48.58

The pill, apparently. 

Lucy Douglas 49.00

Mummy’s boys. 

Franki Cookney 49.03

Oh yeah, men who need mothering. Not hot. Not hot in 1982, not hot now. 

Lucy Douglas 49.10

Thank you for listening to our first ever episode. We hope you enjoyed it. 

Franki Cookney 49.15

If you did, please consider leaving us a glowing review and smashing that five stars button. 

Lucy Douglas 49.22

It'll help the podcast grow. We hope you join us again next time when we'll be finding out, is selfishness a sin or a necessity? Bye.

Franki Cookney 49.30

Bye. 

[Theme music]

Mag Hags is written and hosted by Franki Cookney and Lucy Douglas.
Editing and audio production by Franki Cookney.

Our theme music is Look Where That Got You, Mattie Maguire. Additional music: Leotard Haul, Dez Moran. Both courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com.